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Virtual Communities as Third Places

Introduction

This meeting was an open discussion following presentations by Marianne van den Boomen, a writer living in Amsterdam, and Robin Hamman, a graduate student in London, and took place Tuesday, March 23, 1999, 1700 GMT, at the GNA Forum.

Ray Oldenburg has written to suggest the importance of what he calls "third" places. According to his terminology home being the "first" and work being the "second", under "third" we have places such coffee shops, and bars, clubs and in general public meeting areas.

A common argument for virtual communities is that they function as "third" places, and given that social problems abound in modern societies, virtual communities might be seen as a positive develepment. In particular, many see a sense of loss of community in modern society and believe that virtual communities might be a substitute. To what extent is this a valid and useful view? We have a number of interesting questions here:

Transcript

Sam_K says, "How are you doing folks? nervous? ;-)"

Marianne says, "Yes...This goes so fast"

Robin exclaims, "no. i'm in cyberspace... never nervous here!"

Marianne smiles broadly

Sue arrives.

Marianne says, "But only your repair man makes you nervous ;-)"

Sam_K [to Sue]: welcome Sue

Robin says, "I did an online discussion the other day in the java room on my site. it went to fast for me. hi sue (sue thomas?)"

Marianne says, "Hi Sue!"

Robin says, "yeh, the boiler repair guy is here hammering away at the moment."

Sue says, "hi everyone!"

Robin says, "hiya sue : )"

Kimg [guest] finds its way in.

Sue says, "yes it's sue thomas!"

Sam_K says, "did you all meet in Amsterdam?"

Marianne says, "Of course! "

Sue says, "great to see you robin, marianne and Sam"

Marianne says, "Hi Kimg!"

Robin says, "i am going to go tell the repair guy to leave me alone unless it's really important. i'll be back in 30 seconds, and hopefully he won't be back at all. lol."

Andrea [guest] finds its way in.

Sam_K says, "Hey guys Im still waiting for some kind of report about the event :-)"

Sam_K [to Andrea]: welcome to the meeting!

Marianne says, "You mean the event of Robins repair man?"

Sue says, "much as i like virtual life, i love fleshmeets too"

Sam_K cracks up.

Marianne says, "Sue! That word! ;-)"

Sue says, "i hope you will all come to our internation conference in 2000"

Sam_K says, "nop, the conference in Amsterdam"

Marianne says, "What conference?"

Sue says, "international - july 10-12 2000"

Sam_K says, "a few days ago"

Sam_K [to Andrea]: are you in the gna-vc list?

Kimg [guest] says, ""Hi folks.""

Marianne says, "Oh! Now I understand... Sue, that's a good misunderstanding for your project!"

Robin says, "there is a really good conference coming up in the UK this summer... exploring cybersociety http://www.unn.ac.uk/corporate/cybersociety"

SteveC arrives from nowhere.

Sam_K [to Kimg]: welcome to the meeting!

Marianne says, "Hi Steve. Steve Cisler?"

Robin exclaims, "wow sam, i'm impressed that you got all these people to come!"

SteveC says, "No ... Steve Cavrak, from the University of Vermont ... "

Marianne says, "OK, getting nervous now ?;-)"

Robin says, "hi steve"

Marianne says, "to Steve: anyway welcome!"

Kimg [guest] says, "to sam_k "hi""

Robin exclaims, ": )-~ not so long as my pack doesn't run out!"

Sam_K says, "I advertize it widely"

Sam_K [to SteveC]: welcome to the meeting!

Marianne says, "to Robin: your pack? I have sometimes trouble with English..."

Sam_K says, "Steve is a long time GNA associate"

Robin says, "no jokesay yes marianne... of cigarettes... moving up to the high nicotine ones soon : )"

Marianne says, "Aha! I've mine at hand also. Good thing you can smoke in cyberspace..."

Sam_K smiles.

Sam_K [to marianne]: also healthy

Robin says, "sam, how long does this last?i"

Marianne says, "to Sam: :-) You're from America..."

Sam_K says, "nop, Im a euro :-)"

Robin says, "marianne, so am I... but I'm a tobacco exile to britain : )"

Marianne says, "Sam ,how do you make these brackets if you sau someting to a specific person?"

Marianne says, "Tobacco exiles! Do we have a policy for them? ;-)"

1st_Guest has disconnected.

Sam_K says, "it depends on the MOO ... try the "`" character that is above the tab key just before the name of the other person/character"

(Andrea [guest] has disconnected.)

Marianne says, "he, our visitors walk out..."

Andrea [guest] finds its way in.

Robin says, "I just disconnected my alter-ego... no worries Marrianne : )"

Marianne says, "Ah, Andrea is back..."

Andrea [guest] [to Marianne]: ...some problem with computer

Topaz_Guest arrives from nowhere.

Sam_K says, "shall we start?"

Robin says, "it sure has gone quiet.. sure sam."

Marianne says, "Ok"

Sam_K [to Topaz_Guest]: welcome to the meeting!

Andrea [guest] [to sam]: of cto sam ok let's start

Sam_K [to Marianne]: commands like direct sayings do not work across MOOs

Marianne says, "I find out ;-)"

Sam_K says, "I would like to welcome everybody to this meeting, a discussion between Robin and Marianne "

Sam_K [to Marianne]: would you like to introduce yourself?

Marianne says, "Mm, yeah. At the moment I'm writing a book on virtual communities. Lots and lots to read, specially your mailinglists. ;-)"

Sam_K [to Marianne]: looking forwards to it in translation :-)

Marianne says, "So, the book has crossed several deadlines by now..."

Marianne says, "I hope so.."

Sam_K [to Robin]: would you like to introduce yourself?

Robin says, "I'm a part-time lecturer, doctoral student and freelance Internet consultant based at the Hypermedia Research Centre, University of Westminster, London. I edit a website called cybersoc (http://www.cybersoc.com) and a webzine called cybersociology (http://www.cybersociology.com) which has an issue (#5) coming out next week. I've been studying online communities for about 3 years now. I'm currently in the process of building an online community for digital artartisans in the London area."

Marianne says, "wow, you really prepared"

Sam_K says, "would any of the guests like to introduce yourselves and tell us how you heard about the event?"

Robin says, "just a quick copy and paste from somewhere else : )"

Sam_K says, "please send prepared material in small chunks ;-)"

SteveC says, "is from University of Vermont / Globewide Network Academy / Usenet University "

SteveC says, " and communet@list.uvm.edu"

Kimg [guest] says, "I'm Kim Gregson also a doctoral student and will be teaching a class this summer on virtual communities"

Sam_K [to SteveC]: I understand you have been around MOOs for a long time ;-)

Andrea [guest] [to all]: ..i'm andrea and i'm a student in a university in Italy near Milan ..i'm going to tak e my degree in Economy and commerce and i'm studying the community for my thesish..so sorry for may english :o))

Robin asks, "communitet is a mailing list, right?"

Sam_K says, "COMMUNET is an extremely interesting mailing list about community networks"

SteveC [to cybersoc]: "yes, communet is a mailing list; moose are at the limits of my skills, though I would like to learn to program bots :)

Marianne says, "I'll check that one out... Ther goes another deadline ;-)"

Robin says, "my email list included communet and gna-vc in it's listing of other email lists... see www.cybersoc.com for more info."

Robin says, ": )"

Sam_K says, "COMMUNET's archives are at: http://list.uvm.edu/archives/communet.html

SteveC says, "and communet was founded at the instigation of Steve Cisler and Steve Snow :)"

Sam_K says, "I first arranged the meeting with Marianne only but she suggested a discussion with Robin"

Marianne says, "Ah, so... yes, because I thought a MOO would be better for a discussion, and not a lecture or something"

Sam_K says, "I was counting on two events but the discussion looks better"

Marianne says, "Perhaps Robin can begin?"

Robin says, "well, we're all here now : )"

Sam_K [to Robin]: would you like to summarize your position

Robin asks, "i've just found some text from oldenburg. it's about a paragraph. maybe this would be a good thing to start with before I summarise?"

Sam_K [to Robin]: sure

Marianne says, "yeah, fine"

Robin says, "http://www.stcloudstate.edu/~scogdill/netoric/thirdplace.html is the place where I got this..."

Robin says, "Third places exist on netural ground and serve to level their guests to a condition of social equality. within these places, conversation is the primary activity and the major vehicle for the display and appreciation of human personality and indiviuality."

Robin says, "(i had to type that because cutting and pasting it didn't work)"

Marianne says, "That because the paste stops at a line break..."

Sam_K . o O ( "newline" characters cause problems again :- )

Robin says, "my position, carrying on from that, is that many places which we find online, that is chat rooms, message board sustems, etc are third places - they aren't home, or work, but still important to the formation of community."

SteveC . o O ( talk radio, call in programs ? )

Robin says, "sure, why not."

Marianne says, "Not for Oldenburg, I suppose. You got to have regulars..."

Robin says, "i feel that many of the traditional third places, coffee shops, street corners, etc have disappeared in modern times or maybe didn't exist at all ... but there are plenty of places online where people can either build new communities or can get together with their preexisting communities. [end]"

SteveC . o O ( [begin] [/end] :) )

Marianne says, "Was that the end of your summary, Robin?"

Robin says, "yes [end] giggles."

Sam_K . o O ( it is probably XML [end/] :- )

Marianne laughs loudly

Marianne says, "Shall I paste my position, then?"

Robin says, "please do marianne."

Sam_K says, "yes please"

Marianne says, "Good points of the 'third place'-concept in relation to the question 'what are virtual communities' are:

Sam_K . o O ( mix and match )

Marianne says, "BUT..."

Marianne says, "I have several problems with the concept."

Marianne says, "Shall I explain my point at each of these 4 elements?"

SteveC [to marianne]: sure ... i'm all eyese ...

Sam_K says, "sure, by spatial empahsis you mean we are restricted in our appreciation of the new medium by emphasizing space?"

SteveC . o O ( (eyese = eyes =/= ears ) )

Marianne says, "OK. AD 1) SPACIAL EMPHASIS"

Sue listens

Marianne says, "Sharing a certain space can be constitutional for communities but it is not necessary. There are lots of other things to share in a community: work experiences, stories, hobbys, interests, information, daily life, popular culture, tools, gifts, comfort, debates, confrontations. This is the case especially in 'cyberspace'."

Topaz_Guest nods

Marianne says, "Where comes this idea of 'cyberspace' as a space from? It is not a space but a network, that's perhaps to abstract, to inmaterial to think it without metaphores. Indeed, the notion of space in cyberspace is a metaphore. And metaphores create their own reality - nothing wrong with that, we can not live without metaphores, but we need to realize that metaphores not only opens up certain associations but als closes down other associations. Space is a very massive unifying concept, it's like a prison, it includes clear walls and bounderies, it excludes holes, leakages, discontunuities, floating things, mixtures and exchanges. And I think cyberspace is more about these discontinuities than it is about space."

Sam_K says, "ouch"

Robin says, "say ok, prsay [sorry about the previous junk - my telnet won't let me go back and edit]"

Marianne smiles broadly

Robin says, "I tend to think of cyberspace as space."

Marianne says, "Well, me too. But it narrows perspective, I think."

Robin asks, "is it ok if I explain that comment, or should I wait?"

Marianne says, "Go ahead, I finsished the part about space."

Sam_K [to marianne]: so you are arguing for a new model?

Marianne says, "Yes, but I come to that later..."

Robin says, "darn moo, i just lost everything I typed. : ("

Sue says, "that in order to function healthily in cyberspace we must first adapt and accept all the leakages and uncertainties and discontinuitues and.."

Marianne says, "It must be somewhere in cyberSPACE ;-)"

Sam_K says, "real space provides continuity, online we need the regulars more than in real life"

Sue says, "maybe newbies comint straight to a 'community' expect more stability than there really is"

Sue says, "cyberspace demands a different psychology"

Sam_K [to Robin]: type in an editor first and then cut and paste

Marianne says, "Real life doesn't have that much continuity either... Ask Robin about his privatised social networks..."

Robin says, "say I'm having problems with cut and paste at the moment."

Kimg [guest] says, "but maybe in eeal life the rules for what to expect in a social place are better known"

Sue says, "i agree marianne"

Kimg [guest] says, "that was supposed to be 'real' life"

Robin says, "my main point, in the things I've typed three times now (technology!)... is that for me, cyberspace makes it possible for all of us to meet."

Sam_K [to Robin]: the cybergod is after you!

Marianne says, "Yes, I agree with the meeting POINT, but why space?"

Sue says, "ah - do people get a sense of space? I know I do"

Robin says, "I think space is the only way that we can think about a meeting point which allows us to gather in the way that we have here."

Marianne says, "Th econcept of space implies very often a deep nostalgia for so called lost things/spaces..."

Sue says, " a sense of navigation"

Sam_K [to Sue]: in a MOO it is easy to get a sense of space

Marianne says, "Mm, I only get disoriented..."

Sue says, "a sense of travelling here to be at this meeting today ... or is that only me? I doubt it."

Marianne says, "Shall I go on to my next point?"

Robin says, "i'm ok with that marianne. go ahead"

Sam_K [to Marianne]: yes unless Robin has something to say

Marianne says, "AD 2) NOSTALGIA FOR LOST REAL THIRD PLACES"

Marianne says, "There certainly has been a process like the one Wellman (1995) descibes: the 'domestication and privatisation of community' in modern times. It's the big story of falling apart in different locations: work, home, family, friends - indeed, we have to travel a lot these days to keep up, networkstyle, between al those spaces. And indeed, we 'travel' also more and more by media: by telephone, by e-mail and so on. "

Marianne says, "But is it true that we have, as Robin describes, 'a decreased chance of unplanned meetings since we spent so little time in public areas'? What about the public areas in trains, on busses, parkinglots, roadresaurants, gasstations, railroadstations, airports? And besides, there has emerged a huge amount of public spaces at the branches of this motorised transport infrastructure: cafes, restaurants, malls, amusementparcs, congrescenters, sidewalkcafes, campingssites, pop halls and so on. There a more of these public places than ever has been in history."

Marianne says, "Yes, these meeting places are privatised in the double sense: you go there mostly individually or in the private company of your friends, and you mostly have to pay money to a private company who runs the place. "

Marianne says, "Neighbourhood shops, local pubs, barber shops, coffeehouses, were they free? No. Only parks and streets are free."

Marianne says, "But parks and streets are only community meeting points in the travel infrastructure of walking, where the social action range is within walking and talking distance. Since we extended our social action range by means of motorised transportation, we did the same with the public places were we meet. Public paces nowadays are extended, scattered over various locations, changed of character and infrastructure but they are not lost!"

Marianne says, "I really don't undertand how Oldenburg can state that 'the number of third places within cities throughout the Western world has been in decline for quite some time'. Though not al 'postmodern' third places are 'within cities' even within cities there has been a tremendous explosion of what the dutch call 'horeca' (hotel-cafe-restaurants) and going out (word?) infrastructure: discos, dancing halls, cultural centers etcetera, and social gathering places like churches, new age centers, weight watchers meetings, lectures in libraries and so on. "

Marianne says, "(I think Oldenburg is very biased: he only looks at the infamous American suburbs wich are so completely planned on a automobile infrastructure they forgot to make an infratsructure for the social radius of walking and biking distance. And his image of America is that of the individual going West, but you can also see the history of America as a story of associations, congregations, numerous churches and sects. That's also typical American...) Well, that's my part about the nostalgia for so called lost public spaces..."

Sam_K [to Marianne]: lets not forget that in this country the experience difers from Europe, open air caffes are not very common in USA, the idea of drinking coffee and "people watching" is very alien to American "effectivenes"

Robin says, "in my opinion, few of us are recognisably "regulars" at these places you describe. Fordism, rationalisation, or whatever we want to call it has created a situation where we are encouraged not to linger any longer than it takes us to consume whatever product someone is selling us."

Topaz_Guest . o O ( open air cafes aren't common in the UK either! )

Marianne says, "Yes, thats also true. I had that impression when I was in America/ New York. Quickly finish your coffee, is the message..."

Sam_K [to Topaz_Guest]: point taken although you should visit Bournemouth ;-)

Robin says, "online we encouraged to linger, although I think it is a mistake to think of online space as "public" when the net is increasingly becoming corporate space."

SteveC . o O ( i was going to point to http://www.berkeley.edu/sproul_cam.html as a people watching place ... but its raining there :) )

Sue says, "excuse me all but I have to go now - be in touch soon - thanks for this - a lot to think about"

Marianne says, "So I think Oldenburgs point is certainly a message for urban America - indeed, you have to plan third places. But in cyberspace th epoint is: you dont have to plan them. "

Sue says, "sorry to go so soon"

Sue waves.

Sam_K [to Sue]: thanks for coming

Sam_K waves.

Robin says, "I'm not really sure where to proceed from here."

Marianne says, "Bye Sue!"

Sam_K [to Marianne]: to clarify your position, you say the distinction is not really useful ... are you suggesting we have a new mixing of functions?

Marianne says, "to Robin: but even corparate space on the net has to do something public, they often call e specific part of their site 'community'."

Marianne says, "(to Sam) My point is more that we better reserve the concept of third places to real life. Virtual communities are no compensation for the absense of real third places. "

Marianne says, "Shall I go on with my third point?"

Robin says, "yes"

Piano_Visitor arrives from nowhere.

Sam_K [to Marianne]: yes please

Marianne says, "AD 3) THE NORMATIVE FRAME"

Sam_K [to Piano_Visitor]: welcome to the meeting!

Marianne says, "So, in my opinion there is no loss of public spaces. Still, there is a problem with postmodern public spaces. They are massive and anonymous. Though people certainly have a need to meet unknown stangers or at least to dive in the anonymous crowd - why eat in a restaurant with your friend and not at home? - something is missing in these new third places."

Marianne says, "They mostly lack a normative frame. Or better: their normative frame doesn't go beyond their own space. Roughly stated: inside the cafe there a certain rules, outside the cafe you can fight on the street and practically no one will try to stop you. That's in my opinion the reason third places are not constitutive anymore for the sense of community: new third places are imprisoned in their own space. They just can't reach the large and diversely scaled social action range people have nowadays. A local pub of barber shop can reach the small scale local village as a community, but it can not reach a larger scale of action range."

Marianne says, "And new third places are also imprisoned in great scale and anonymity. Yes, you can go there but it's not certain you meet people you already know. You go there for the abstract comfort of the company of stangers. In these public spaces each one is an individual and only very temporarely you are part of a group with perhaps a sense of community and social belonging. "

Behn's_Guest teleports in

Marianne says, "That was my part on the normative frame. This normative frame is part of my definition of any community."

Sam_K [to Behn]: welcome to the meeting!

Behn's_Guest has arrived.

Robin says, "I agree with your last point marianne... that in modern third places we aren't guaranteed that we will meet people that we know."

Sam_K [to Marianne]: so continuity in terms of people is a crucial element in your view?

SteveC . o O ( and we're not likely to meet people we don't know, either :( )

Robin says, "continuity and some kind of regular attendance is very important to any community and each individual's sense of membership to that community."

Marianne says, "No. There must be some people interacting for a certain time, but the people can change over time and you can still have this sense of community."

Robin says, "that really depends on which, of the dozens or hundreds, of definitions of community we are using."

Sam_K says, "continuity in terms of place and time has been very useful for GNA ... for the most part of the last 5 years we have regular Wednesday meetings at 1700 GMT it has worked for us :-"

Sam_K smiles.

Marianne says, "That certainly applies for virtual communities. Thats one point in wich they are different from spacially constituted communities."

Behn's_Guest suddenly returns from the tutorial.

Robin says, "to me, community is a group of people, interacting, sharing some common ties, and inhabiting the same space for at least some of the time. I think that applies to all communities, both online and off."

Marianne says, "To Sam: that was almost exactly my new concept: its about time/space relationships, not about third place as space."

Behn's_Guest teleports in

Behn's_Guest says, "Hello, I'm new"

Sam_K [to Marianne]: although MOOs provide space trappings we rarely use them

Robin says, "hi new :)"

Marianne says, "to Robin: but why should a community share a spatial space? What about say, the moslem community?"

Sam_K [to Behn's]: welcome again!

Marianne says, "My definition of community: My definition is: 1) a group, 2) recognizable for at least the insiders (but mostly also for the outsiders), 3) with a certain selforganizing normative frame 4) who share things (be it symbolic, material, spatial or otherwise) during a period of time. "

Robin says, "I don't think that we can describe "the muslim community" in a useful way, and for me it's not a community at all. It's people with a set of shared ties. But they aren't all interacting and they aren't all sharing a space. They might be a "group" or an "identity" or "culture" but not really a community."

Sam_K [to Robin]: I think Marianne's position is for a combination of actual space, ritual and sharing of a conceptual frame

Robin says, "I can deal with that definition of community."

Marianne says, "But people derive their moral standards from this community..."

Behn's_Guest glances at the clock...

Sam_K [to Behn's_Guest]: we started an hour ago

Marianne says, "A combination is possible, but shared space is not nessessary"

Robin says, "this is one of the primary difficulties with discussing community. there are so many definitions... even the dictionary of sociology calls it an "omni-bus word"."

Marianne says, "Yeah, thats true."

Robin says, "maybe we need to reconceptualise community, and strip it of it's past historical, political, (etc) meaning."

SteveC . o O ( nostalgic meanings ? )

Behn's_Guest has lost connection and will hopefully reconnect in the next few moments.

Marianne says, "I thinkk thats neccesary (o, that word;-)"

Robin says, "most people on the street will agree that community is something important, to be cherished, yet us social scientist types have argued about it since the beginning of modernity."

Robin says, "marianne, you may move to yoru fourth point if that is convenient. I need to quickly talk with the repair man."

Marianne says, "Most definotions have indeed a spatial element. But I think thats a spatial bias."

Marianne says, "AD 4: THE SURROGATE CONNOTATION "

Marianne says, "This is ahort one ;-)"

Marianne says, "A short one I mean"

Sam_K smiles

Marianne says, "In saying that virtual communities are a kind of new third place to compensate the loss of real great good places it is implied that VC are a surrogate for something. A surrogate for something real. But that implies also that the real thing is better, the surrogate is second choice. I think that's diminishing the value of VC. VC are not second hand third places, they are something new of their own. A way of coping with the complexities of life nowadays."

Marianne says, "Eh, VC = virtual communities."

Robin says, "I don't even use the term virtual community anymore. i use online community for this reason. virtual = simulation of the real or almost real. online communities needn't be only simulations or almost."

Marianne says, "That sound a bit like my plea not to use the word place/space for online communities."

Sam_K says, "using "virtual" creates all kinds of "real" problems, but we are stuck for historical reasons with the term"

Marianne says, "Perhaps I als switch to online communities, but I like the virtue of virtuality..."

Piano_Visitor says, "I can agree. But Im wondering in what terms the "electronic communitites" can help to achieve more integration into "real society"?"

Robin says, "I don't think that online communities necessarily take the place of anything either. Our communities, at least for many of us, are already what Wellman describes as *network communities*. That is, for many of us, our communities are only accesible through the telephone or transportation network. None of my friends live within five minutes of me, for example, but I don't see us as less of a community because of it. To meet we have to take a taxi or use the phone. Online communities are exactly this type of community = a network community."

Marianne says, "But in your desription of your network as a communiy ther is only one shared tie: you! Thats OK but why call that a community?"

Sam_K [to Marianne]: (just kidding) have you studied linguistic philosophy?

Marianne says, "To Sam I wish I had... ;-)"

Marianne says, "I think online communities have more shared thing than just one person."

Robin says, "the shared tie CAN be me, and I think that in the world we live in community can be reduced to the level of the individual, yes. Some would call this merely a social network, but it fits my term of community."

SteveC . o O ( perhaps [[sense of self]] ~~ [[sense of community]] )

Robin says, "steve, maybe."

SteveC says, "I"

Marianne says, "To SteveC: dis you study math ;-)"

Marianne says, "But Robin, don't you think a community has to have a normative frame?"

SteveC says, "oops. I'm studying Japanese and one of the real twisters is that conjugation of verbs (nouns, adjectives) is really a mapping of sthe social relationship between speaker, listener, and the person being spoken about ..."

Sam_K [to Marianne]: he studied quite a lot math actually :-)

Robin says, "say there is no other way to tie together the people who I would describe as being in "my community" other than to reduce the term network community to the level of the individual. Sure, most of the people in my personal network community share other ties, and many of them know each other, but the main tie between them is that I'm at the center of the cluster."

Robin says, "steve, that is something a friend of mine was telling me about the other day... that in japanese, community is linked to the relationshps you speak of."

SteveC says, "yes, and the "I"

Marianne says, "That s very interesting!"

Robin says, "marianne, i'm not sure I know what you are asking about a normative frame."

Robin says, "that is VERY interesting Steve."

SteveC says, "yes, and the [[I]] can't be separated out from the [[thou]] and [[it]]"

Piano_Visitor says, "If me is Piano-Visitor, then "Hi, everybody, Im Julian, a student working on "Virtual or electronic communities."

Robin says, "[I only have 10 minutes left]"

Marianne says, "If the only shared tie in your community is you, how can this community ever set a kind of norms for all? "

SteveC . o O ( hmmm. a community = [[web of relationships]])

Robin says, "I don't think that communisay oops"

Sam_K [to SteveC]: if Im not mistaken the Japanese distinguish between "tatamae" and "honne" the view of the self presented to close friends and the one to everybody else, this sense of identity

Robin says, "I don't think that a concept like community, or any concept, can hold true for all."

Marianne says, "Yes, and by that a set of orientation norms."

SteveC [to Sam_K]: yes, the japanese have "rings" of communities (in group, out group, far out group)

Sam_K [to SteveC]: I feel this distinction is also present in the West in some sense although not verbalized

Robin asks, "steve, do you happen to know of any social scientific text on this (in English?)?"

Robin says, "we just keep coming back to this problematic term of community! I think this is our main disagreement."

Sam_K [to Robin]: Im aware of a good intro book on Japan and will post it on the list

Robin says, "sam, I only have about 5 minutes left to be here. Do you want to maybe try to summarise some things and let us try to come to some kind of concluding statements? (you are welcome, of course, to carry on without me)"

Sam_K [to Julian]: where are you a student?

Marianne says, "The advantage of a diffuse concept is you have to make your defintion and why you want to use certain words very clear."

Piano_Visitor [to Sam-K]: "in Augsburg, Germany.

Sam_K [to Robin]: everything is to close to mind right now to summarize ... we can work something out by email and include it in the transcript

Robin says, "I actually think that asynchronis would be better for this discussion : ) too much to try to think about at once."

Topaz_Guest smiles

Sam_K [to Piano_Visitor]: great! we have people from: Amsterdam, London, Milan, Augsburgh, Vermont and Chicago ...not bad

SteveC . o O ( (what, not being in the same place helps community ??? ) )

Robin says, "I'm glad we talked a bit about the japanese language ... steve, to me a message board or email list is MORE conducive to community online than is a chat room or moo."

SteveC [to Robin]: I'll send you some of my pet, but not useful, refs.

Robin says, "I need to get going. I apologise for what now seems to be a premature departure."

Robin says, "thank you marianne. we can argue more by email."

Robin says, "thanks for inviting us sam"

Sam_K [to Robin]: thanks for coming!

Topaz_Guest says, "nice to meet you Robin"

Marianne says, "Well, bye bye Robin! See you! On e-mail... :-)"

Robin says, "I've enjoyed this. I'ts helped me think ore about community and the problems I'm still having conceptually in my own work. Thanks for the criticisms."

Piano_Visitor [to Sam-K]: "do we have to finish know, good bye everybody, hope we meet again.

Robin says, "bye."

Wats[guest] has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove Wats[guest].

SteveC [to marianne]: [[diffuse]] might also be though of as [[dynamic]] ... and that might help get to the process part of community as opposed to the IS part of community.

Kimg [guest] says, "bye - I look forward to reading your book Marianne."

Sam_K [to Piano_Visitor]: it is up to Marianne, we can stay until she finishes, please ask questions if you like (Kimg [guest] has disconnected.)

Sam_K waves.

Marianne says, "To Steve: Yes, that s exactly the point! We need concepts to talk about the becoming of community, the process, and the being (inspace)"

Marianne says, "Shall I do my last point, about a new concept? :-)"

Sam_K [to Marianne]: definitely!

Marianne says, "Virtual communities in my opinion are not privatised individual networks nor third places. They are a strange mix of the two, and thereby something completely new. Yes, virtual communities has some elements of the private social network:"

Marianne says, "- they're social networks with strong connections to the daily lives IRL"

Marianne says, "- they're social networks with strong connections to the daily lives IRL ... Yes, virtual communities also has some elements of the third place:"

Marianne says, "- they're not home and not work, they constitute a place where you can integrate or seperate these two aspects of your life"

Topaz_Guest . o O ( they could be work in some cases... )

Marianne says, "" - they're not home and not work, they constitute a place where you can integrate or seperate these two aspects of your life"

Piano_Visitor [to Marianne"but]: IRL we have to follow other rules of interaction than in VL

Marianne says, "- they're a kind of public space where you meet fellow travellers and strangers ... But they differ fundamentally from private social networks:"

Marianne says, "- they're not privatised, but public: they consist of insiders but are technically and principally open to newbies, strangers, lurkers, outsiders (even a closed group like alt.hacking is open for newbies if they manage tot hack the usenet-system, because you can only post in this newsgroup if you are able to do so)"

Marianne says, "- they 're not individual: the ties are supposed to be more than just knowing or relying on one person (although moderators and stimulators are very important) and the community products and effects are there for the whole group ... And they also differ fundamentally from third places:"

Marianne says, "- The public space of virtual communities is very non-spatial, it has more to do with time: giving your time to a community, spending time in a community for the time being. Virtual communities are more about discontunuities and permeable borders than about spaces and fixed borders. It's more a fourth dimension than a third place. (The 4th dimension includes the other three dimensions of point, surface and space. Its supersedes in time these 3 dimensions and focusses on becoming rather than being. You see that happen in virtual communities: here people integrate and separate their experiences in their first, second and third places.)"

Sam_K [to Marianne]: I also find the idea of privatized social networks rather restrictive

Marianne says, "Well, they're indeed the way we live, but besides that people need a sense of community, I think."

Sam_K [to Marianne]: I see this integrative character as having a therapeutic effect

Marianne says, "Yes, it happen online all the time, see the alt.support.* newsgroups... But there also is al lot of noise, flaming and so on. Perhaps thats therapeutical too? ;-)"

Sam_K [to Piano_Visitor]: could you repeat your question please?

Sam_K [to Marianne]: cleaning the deck? :-) :-)

Marianne says, "Yeah, OK. Hope you all enjoyed it..."

Sam_K [to Marianne]: thanks for your presentation, I hope there is an English translation :-)

SteveC [to marianne]: quite thought provoking ... maybe we need a fourth place :)

Marianne smiles broadly

(Andrea [guest] has disconnected.)

Sam_K [to Marianne]: alternatively we need to learn Dutch ...

Marianne says, "Perhaps you can start by translating my book ;-)"

Sam_K [to Marianne]: Im not sure about that but I did support the Dutch soccer team last year :-) :-)

SteveC says, "perhaps we can all get to a coffee house in Amsterdam ?"

Marianne says, "Well, I go and have my dinner... O yeas, you should have been here at the next Five Minutes..."

SteveC says, "yikes ! It's late there ! Thanks for visiting Burlington Vermont ! (south of Montreal :)"

Sam_K [to Marianne]: on behalf of GNA thanks for comming and perhaps we can do it again in the new Century!

Marianne says, "Bye Steve!"

SteveC says, "Ciao Marianne !""

Marianne says, "Oke, and thanks you. It was quite eh - looking for a word - learning..."

You say, "thanks everybody the transcript will be online in a few days"

Marianne says, "bye Sam!"

SteveC says, "noisy"

Sam_K waves.

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