A presentation by Barbara Steinberg, (barbara@panix.com) moderator of the Web Sociology List (Web Socks). This meeting took place Thursday, July 16, 1998, at 1900 GMT (3 PM NY time) at the GNA Forum, and it was recorded.
This is the edited transcript for the Souls Touching Across Wires: The Emotional Design of Online Communities meeting that took place, Thursday, July 16, 1998, at 1900 GMT, at the GNA Forum.
This presentation is the result of three years' life experience on the internet. I don't see my online life as an essay, but rather a maze of stories and thought-conclusions leading into the unknown. Who will I meet whose world view will change my life? Souls touching across wires isn't about conversation. It occurs when someone expresses their inner power online and gives you a philosophical, emotional, or intellectual tool that changes you forever.
You can no longer see the world the same way for having known them, and you would have never met them if the internet had not allowed you to meet, souls first. Even though communication takes place with words, the other person leaves a spiritual imprint with you, which goes beyond words.
This is the gift, and sometimes the danger of the internet. But this emotional exchange takes place, many times, in online communities. And so when you are creating one, you have to think about what part of people's humanity you want to reach and what you want to do with it when you get there. This is what I mean when I talk about emotional design. This presentation is going to cover such topics as
the power relationship between moderator and community member
how to tap into people's true humanity
the balance between revelation and privacy
the trust balance: case in point: the reactions of the community of problem drinkers to the man who confessed to murdering his daughter
the balance between debate and going too far--when to let go of an argument and why
the balance between innovation and social stability.
Sam says, "I would like to welcome Barbara Steinberg to our workshop ... she has come up with an interesting topic and am looking forwards to her presentation"
Barbara says, "Hello, it is a privilege to speak with you today. Thank you very much for having me. I will paste the introduction and the first unit, and then open up the forum for discussion"
Barbara says, "This presentation is the result of three years' life experience on the internet. I don't see my online life as an essay, but rather a maze of stories and thought-conclusions leading into the unknown. Who will I meet whose world view will change my life? Souls touching across wires isn't about conversation. It occurs when someone expresses their inner power online and gives you a philosophical, emotional, or intellectual tool that changes you forever. "
Barbara says, "You can no longer see the world the same way for having known them, and you would have never met them if the internet had not allowed you to meet, souls first. Even though communication takes place with words, the other person leaves a spiritual imprint with you, which goes beyond words."
Barbara says, "This is the gift, and sometimes the danger of the internet. But this emotional exchange takes place, many times, in online communities. And so when you are creating one, you have to think about what part of people's humanity you want to reach and what you want to do with it when you get there. This is what I mean when I talk about emotional design."
Barbara says, "The community I created out of these ideas is the Web Sociology List, or Socks. Currently, it is a mailing list with a web site that has a gallery, writers corner, chat room, and FAQ. As I gain more technological tools as a student at the Interactive Telecommunications Program at NYU, I plan to create a more interesting interactive chest of drawers to put the Socks in. :-)"
Sam smiles.
Barbara says, "Unit 1: The Power Relationship Between List Maintainer and List Member"
Barbara says, "The power relationship I chose for Socks came out of an experience I had on the first online community I was part of, New York Online. That was that somone flamed me"
Sam . o O ( I know the feeling ... )
Barbara says, "really badly. I had been there for three years. I wrote beautiful pieces for them. I thought I was valued. When I wrote to the community owner, he never returned my mail. He was becoming a media star, and I was just a list member. I did not agree with his low assessment of my value. So I said to myself, what if you had a community where the members were more important than the moderator? What if you turned the authority balance inside out? What if you moderated tone instead of content?"
Barbara says, "I found that the secret to making Socks work was give the power away. I gave the community to the members. When everyone realized that this gift of community was sincere, that I would not try to hold power close to myself, they started to trust me and eachother. They started making the emotional connection to the stake they had in the community, and the revelation of life stories which creates souls touching across wires began. "
Barbara says, "three more paragraphs, then questions"
Barbara says, "The members give me the privilege and gift of leading Socks in a way that will best serve their interests as they are expressed in the messages. The members can take this privilege away at any time. Because I trust them with this power to throw me out, they give me back the power to lead. I lead Socks with the reflection of power."
Barbara says, "One would think this power equation could not exist in large, commercial communities. But I wonder about that. I remember when Steve Case of AOL already signed contracts with marketing agencies to sell email addresses to them. $10 million agreements. He wanted to alter the huge percentage of revenue that came from subscriber fees and get more from advertising. He stealthily inserted this provision into the terms of service. The press got wind of it, and there was a firestorm."
Barbara says, "AOL members felt they had a stake in their online lives at AOL, and they howled in protest at Case, who wanted to sell their email addresses to commercial interests. As they constituted 80% of AOLs income at that time, Steve Case had no other choice but to rescind this business idea. I dont think an online community can ever be an autocracy. I think Steve Case forgot that as people feel their stake in, or dependence upon,a community increases, the autocratic power of the moderator to go against the communitys will decreases."
Barbara says, "So I am very interested in what this esteemed audience thinks. "
Barbara says, "Whether a list maintainer admits it or not, dont members really have the power to throw him/her out by not consenting to be led? Arent the will to leadership and consent to be led two equal parts of a delicate emotional balance, which has to be worked out -- in whatever myriad of different combinations -- in order for the community to work?"
Barbara says, "I will now open up the discussion"
Sam says, "Thank you Barbara! I think our ideas very much coincide here ... I also think that trust has to be earned ... friendship can not be forced on others"
Sapphire_Guest arrives from nowhere.
Caro says, "surely if someone dislikes the politics of a moo, they simply go to another?"
Jzitt says, "There's an aspect of it that is almost leading by not-leading. I have a feeling that (at least until recently) many of the members of the list that I manage (Silence: The John Cage Mailing List) were unaware that there was an leader, and that it was me, since i did whatever I could behind the scenes."
Sam says, "Caro, sure, I think Barbara's point is how to approach community politics from the leadership view"
Barbara says, "has anyone ever been part of a mutiny against arule?"
Sam says, "nop"
Caro nods to Sam
Jzitt says, "Not that I can think of: in most such situations, the people just wander away. For there to be a mutiny, the mutineers must believe that, despite the leader, the community itself is worth maintaining in its current virtual location."
The beetle guest [guest] says, "I agree with that Barbara. I don't think that people who have formed intense emotional connections to their communtiy will give up so easily..."
Sue says, "I run the trAce online writing community mailing list"
Sam says, "there was an interesting development earlier this year, if I remember correctly, in the Cypherpunks list ... the revolt brought the list down and created 2-3 new lists
Sue says, "and recently we had a problem whereby a member was writing very erratic mails which made quite a few people leave the list.."
Barbara says, "pleasure to meet you Sue :-)"
Sue says, "but of course the members couldnt see people leave - only I could"
Barbara says, "what do you mean, erratic?"
Sam says, "Sue, Im looking forwards to your presentation too :-)"
Sue says, "but when I tried to take some action and mailed her privately with some suggestions designed to help her.."
Sue smiles.
Sue says, "thanks!.."
Jzitt says, "We had a similar problem, which a whacko correspondent, on the Silence list. I worked behind the scene to influence people to simply not respond to his messages, and he toned down when he wan't attracting the attention he wanted."
Sue says, "she misrepresented what I said to the list."
Barbara says, "oooo, that's bad"
Sue says, "i must say I felt as if I wanted to defend myself but that seemed wrong too. What should I have done?"
Sam says, "Jzitt, I think that is a good idea, sometimes there is a subtext of performance ... no audience no interest :-)"
Barbara says, "although I don't know precisely what was misrepresented, what I do when someone gets aggressive is I thank them publicly for the time they took to write their thoughts"
Sue says, "it would take ages to explain - but she said she had been told not to post to the list, which was untrue."
BruceR says, "The issue of a leader's "power" is interesing in the context of cyberspace. The dynamics are described very well in Eric Raymond's papers about hacker run projects and their "gift economy."" In his articles (http://sagan.earthspace.net/~esr/writings/homesteading), he points out that project leaders must have humility, i.e. give credit to others, etc."
Barbara says, "Iry to get them on my side, but now that I read what you just said, that would not apply"
BruceR says, "That is very similar to Barbara's "giving the power to the list community""
Sue says, "Barbara that's a good idea"
Katie [guest] finds its way in.
Caro thinks it is similar to dealing with a disruptive pupil in school...
Barbara says, "someone on the list said he was on another community where the members revolted against the maintainer and she took a 2-month vacation" then another list member said she didn't know why people argued with list owners"
BruceR says, "One of the main problem of online interaction, is there is no percieved accountability."
Jzitt agrees re: Eric's writings. He also wrote the classic paper on open source systems.
Sam says, "BruceR, great example! Eric's paper is worth many readings and now with IBM backing Apache he has the numbers to prove it :-)"
Barbara says, "but I realized that whether a list maintainer thinks it or not, the members do have the power to throw them out, so I just admit it" Sue listens
Jzitt [to BruceR]: that leads to interesting quandries re: archives. If you have one, you can point to what was said earlier, but, as Barbara knows, there are downsides to having them.
Behn's_Guest teleports in
BruceR nods to Jzitt, "Archives do help there."
Caro has to go, thankyou
Caro has disconnected.
Barbara says, "on the Socks list no one would consent to archives. Subjects were too personal"
Sam says, "Barbara, I would like to go to another direction ..."
Barbara says, "archives are too much of a risk in the balance between revelation and privacy which brings me to the next part of the presentation"
Barbara says, "Presentation, unit 2"
BruceR says, "About the only thing at stake though for most people is their online presence, which some don't value."
Barbara says, "The Balance Between Revelation and Privacy"
Barbara says, "an online presence is indeed a powerful thing"
You ask, "To what extent do you think the relationships should be formalized ... for example are there formal arrangements on WebSocks?"
Barbara says, "One of our list members said that self-revelation was a balance between paranoia and stupidity, and you had to figure out where you were on the scale. :-)"
Barbara says, "Early in our communitys history, we developed a strong bond of trust with eachother, and people started talking about things like their mental illnesses, deaths in their families, being falsely accused. We even survived an abortion discussion, although, looking back, it still amazes me that we did. One woman wrote about her fight with depression and how it was resulting in job discrimination at her web design firm. She mentioned she was bringing an EEOC suit against her employer."
Barbara says, "The Web Sociology List is on the same subscription page and server as The Web Design List, which has 2000 professional designers on it. One of the lurkers on Socks knew this womans boss and forwarded the message to her. The woman almost got fired."
Behn's_Guest has lost eir connection and will hopefully reconnect in the next few moments.
The usher arrives to remove Behn's_Guest.
Barbara says, "I thought I was going to dig a hole and never come out again. I was sick. What have I done? I asked myself. Did I get so caught up in the joy of trust, did we all?, that we lost our heads? Possibly. We had big discussions about it."
Barbara says, "From those discussions, I came up with the concept of informed decision, which we put in the FAQ. It states that although it might be therapeutic to reveal a personal story and get support, there are risks involved. Sometimes severe consequences, such as a sullied professional reputation, might result from something you reveal in an online community. It is the responsibility of every list member to weigh these risks and make an informed decision about how much they are comfortable saying."
Barbara says, "This put the responsibility for the revelation decision on the list member and took it off me, which was a great relief. The net is a world of infinite random possibilities, and I couldnt be responsibile for these kinds of disasters. I still feel emotionally responsible for the first one. I was just learning then and trusted trust too much."
Barbara says, "Has anyone here had any similar experiences? Any wisdom they picked up along the way?"
Barbara says, "I will now open up the discussion on the second unit"
Sam scrolls back to check the case
BruceR says, "Wow, what a horrible experience."
Barbara says, "I will never forget it"
Einstein_Guest teleports in.
You ask, "so the lurker informed the company about the EEOC suit?"
Barbara says, "yes"
BruceR says, "That's accountablility in action, mainly because the people's real identity's are known."
Barbara says, "the woman wouldn't tell me who it was because she knew if she did, I'd plaster them"
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""a by-product was that all lurkers became suspect..."
Barbara says, "but has everyone a line that they have developed between revelation and privacy?"
Jzitt says, "Even if they obscure identities online, they can usually be ferreted out, as that recent Canadian case shows."
Ilese arrives.
Barbara says, "hi Ilese"
Sam asks, "Jzitt, what Canadian case?"
BruceR says, "This online stuff, is like talking at a public parties where everyone has a tape recorder running."
Jzitt says, "A universe of linda Tripp *shudder* *grin*"
Wfp says, "Yes, there is a similar situation even now, where we cannot discuss a certain topic in open forum because a certain individual could be lurking ...."
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""msnbc has an article about the canadian case"
Barbara says, "shall I"
Jzitt says, "A Canadain ISP's user records were subpoenaed to give up the user identities. Similar to what was tried against anon.penet.fi that caused it to be shut down."
Barbara says, "what is the Canadian case?"
Sam says, "GNA has a tradition for open meetings, people occassionaly drop by"
Ilese says, "Hello all"
Sam waves.
Barbara says, "why were the records subpeonaed?"
Barbara says, "hi Ilese"
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""to identify the user"
Ilese says, "Hello Barbara"
Sam says, "It looks like the case brought in Holland against xs4all"
Ilese says, "Am I in the discussion about Web Sociology?"
Barbara says, "shall go on to the next unit?"
Wfp says, "... and Socks who are aware of the situation must be very careful not to mention it in posts."
Barbara says, "yes :-)"
Sam says, "Sure, please proceed if appropriate"
Barbara says, "The next part is about the man who confessed to murder in an online community"
Ilese says, "This reminds me of the early days of BBS chats before there was More!"
Barbara says, "The trust balance: Case in point: The reactions of the community of problem drinkers to the man who confessed to murdering his daughter"
Barbara says, "This is one of the most fascinating stories I have ever read about an online community. Recap: A member of a self-help community for problem drinkers reads a confession that a man murdered his daughter. She called the police, and went against the opinions of most community members. The man is now in custody. This case raises an incredible number of issues."
Barbara says, "1) The murder confession: He let her watch her favorite videos, got drunk, set the house on fire, climbed out the window, and put on a show of shock. Quote from the email confession: "Dammit, part of that show was climbing in her window and grabbing her pajamas, then hearing her breathe and dropping her where she was so she could die and rid me of her mother's interferences.""
Barbara says, "2) The tendency of community members to see situations differently: This community was a self-help group for problem drinkers. Some thought that he was experiencing a fantasy out of guilt over his divorce. Others thought he should be comforted because the crime was long past. Others thought it was a murder confession and called police."
Barbara says, "Questions: Do you think objective reality is difficult to ascertain in an online world because it is entirely made up of a sharing of views, which are by nature subjective? None of the members had any hard, tangible evidence. No one had ever met him. "
Barbara says, "What was it about his confession that would make you believe it? Another subjective judgment? Or, is there something about the way someone writes something that is *different* if they are talking about something that really happened?"
Barbara says, "The flame war: After the murder confession, someone wrote, "This is just repulsive stuff," bla bla bla. I won't go on. Y'all can imagine it."
Barbara says, "The moderator's judgment: The moderator, a psychologist, believed that the man was expressing a fantasy because he wanted to be punished for surviving the accident. The moderator thought the man might have invented a false memory. He sent him private mail. Some people were outraged at the moderator's judgment."
Barbara says, "Trust Issue #1: Trust is probably the most important factor in what makes online communities work or fall apart. Question: Can there ever be too much trust?"
Barbara says, "This man trusted people so much he told his darkest secret, if indeed he was telling the truth, which now a trial-by-jury requiring hard evidence will determine. Maybe this guy just went too far, trusting too much in a place where everyone wasn't equipped to deal with it. The balance between revelation and privacy might not have been worked out yet."
Barbara says, "Trust Issue #2: Some of the people who disagreed with the members who turned this guy over to the police asked who did it. Two camps had formed. One member wrote to the other side in private mail. The recipient posted his private letter to the whole list and flamed the guy."
Barbara says, "For me, posting private mail to an entire list is a harmful, malicious breach of trust between community members. It is a symptom that something is wrong at that moment."
Barbara says, "Trust betrayed and trust realized in two very different permutations"
Sue says, "what is fascinating about this discussion is that people involved in this kind of dilemma truly are particiapting in the formation of a new set of mroes and one has to ask..."
Barbara says, "Email as evidence in a trial: An email community is a collection of subjective opinions out of which people's true characters are revealed. A court trial uses protocols of evidence collection, argument, and judgment by a jury to try to determine objective reality."
Barbara [to However]: no one had any hard evidence that this confession was true. The man did not have a lawyer present when he made this confession. etc etc. And, he is pleading not guilty at trial.
Jzitt . o O ( Brock Meek's article on the Canada case, "Anonymous speech a myth on the Net", is at http://www.msnbc.com/news/180191.asp)
Barbara says, "you are right, Sue"
Sue says, "there is a huge responsibility here which is, to be honest, in the hands of amateurs. that's exciting but pretty scarey too."
Sue says, "mores, I meant - scuse typing!"
Barbara says, "So that gets me thinking of what I would have done if anyone posted a murder confession to Socks. I think I would have started asking around to see if this guy had a psychologist, if there were any newspaper reports corroborating the story, etc. If, after gathering as much evidence as I could, I determined that this confession might be true, I would have called the police."
Barbara says, "I wrote to the list that I was not personally equipped to deal with people who invent false"
Barbara says, "oops sorry. Well maybe I'll open up the discussion"
Barbara says, "what would you have done?"
Barbara says, "Where would you come down on this issue of how to judge truth from fantasy in an online post? "
Nureyev's_Guest has lost eir connection and will hopefully reconnect in the next few moments.
Sue says, "Question"
Noel_guest says, "I think that I would have done the same as you said.. tried to collaberate it and if I could called the cops. Or I may have just called the cops."
Jzitt says, "I think the first think I might have done is, if I could ascertain the person's identity, checked the local newspapers to corroborate the death."
BruceR says, "Cyberspace is like the wild west, people think that they can get away with some pretty strange stuff. Mixing fantasy with reality can be really hard without some defined boundarys."
Behn's_Guest teleports in
Sue says, "this man said he had killed his daughter, so the deed was effectively done. What if he had instead said he INTENDED to kill her..?"
Sam says, "one way would be to try to determine facts ... contacting the poster's ISP, the ISP has checked in some way the identity of the person and might feel obliged to call the Police"
Sue says, "that brings in the question of whether one should step in quickly."
Barbara says, "I'd have probably called the police. I wrote to the list that I was not equipped to deal with murder confessions, and it seemed, neither was anyone else, so it was OK"
Jzitt says, "I think if he said he intended to kill her, some action would be necessary, same as if it happened in person. US law, at least, says that even doctor-patient privelege doesn't go that far."
Wfp says, "Brings up the whole issure of "Real Life" vs what? Virtual life?"
BruceR to Sue, "Perhaps you would treat is like a suicide threat; it's a call for help, and needs to be taken seriously.
Ilese says, "I come back to the fact that this was a self-help group for problem drinkers - there is some healing going on supposedly. That means that the person is attempting to take control of their life. I would take this issue to the group and to the perosn to determine where he/she want to go with this confession."
Sue says, "this is not quite the same, but once I had a student who told me he might kill his lover and himself but that was not enough evidence to take to the police, was it? i could do nothing - esp when he had told me privately.
Barbara says, "oh my God"
Barbara says, "did you know him well enough to call him and talk about it?"
Sue says, "In fact there is very little one can do even RL when that happens"
Barbara says, "there is truth to that"
Wfp says, "English teachers must run into this problem all the time, given the proclivities of students to write morbid prose."
Sue says, "he was a very strange guy - hard to talk to - but my point is that people say all kinds of things and it's impossible to judge what to do"
Noel_guest says, " sue Is There not a point where his lovers life or his own overweigh the privacy of the converation."
Sam says, "this is similar to the student writing about a sexual fantasy that involved killing a fellow student ... the police was brought in and there were serious problems ... even though it was a creative writing class "
Sue says, "oh yes! creative writing! tell me about it!"
Sue says, "Sam, yes i know that case"
BruceR says, "That's mainly rudeness on the part of the writer."
Sam says, "It was a story that I remember reading last year ... sorry no URL"
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""surely there is an appropriate time and place though...creative writing can be done at home too no?"
Sue says, "Noel - so I phone the police and tell them - or tell them someone on a mailing list has said he intends to kill - what can they do? that's my point."
Barbara says, "do you think if people know off the bat that if they post something violent like that and don't qualify it with a note that it is fiction, that some people might take action"
Barbara says, "do you think a rule agreed to by the community beforehand might be a way to handle it?"
Jzitt [to Sue]: at least it gives them a heads-up to look for other indications/evidence.
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""there are no adequate rules against stupidity"
Sue says, "Thats right, one cannot legislate for this. that's why we're here right now."
Jzitt says, "What would happen if that was said, say, on a call-in radio show?"
Noel_guest says, "Sue: I believe that if you think that the person *May* be serious then you have an obligation to do something about it. Even if that is calling the police with a really weak story."
Barbara says, "but maybe one can prepare for the possibility, now that it has happened?"
Sue says, "Noel, maybe you're right. I discussed it with colleagues, it was very very difficult."
Barbara says, "like saying there are lines of violent fantasy that might not be a good idea to go beyond?"
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""in what way Barbara?"
BruceR says, " "Laws are to prevent us from killing ourselves, etiquette keeps us from driving us crazy.""
Noel_guest says, "I have no doubt"
Barbara says, ":-) Bruce"
Ilese has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Ilese.
Sam says, "Inet Service Providers are not supposed to be responsible for content ... Im not sure if that extends to possible threats,fantasy,confession ... no case law A responsible ISP would take actions even though not legally implicated"
BruceR (from Ann Landers, I think)
Barbara says, "well, like saying if you post a murder confession people will try to find you"
Barbara says, "don't cross that line"
Barbara says, "then see if people in the community agree"
Wfp says, "But where IS that line, exactly?"
Jzitt says, "While they shouldn't be responsible for content, someone reading it may have a responsibility to take some action, whether it's the ISP or not."
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""I suppose it would all depend on the context of the community...but how to cover all possible "crimes"?"
Barbara says, ""I killed my daughter" ?"
Wfp says, "Murder, OK"
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""torture?"
Wfp says, "Rape?"
Barbara says, "that is what I mean. murder"
Mishima's_Guest has arrived.
Wfp says, "Assault?"
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""bad recipes? "
Wfp says, "Stalking?"
Sue says, "Bad recipes - that's a good point,. I have a story about that."
Jzitt says, "We just had a loooong discussion on Socks on how to define laws... I think that if someone says that s/he intends to injure another, that's some sort of red flag. Unless, of course, he was kidding -- but kidding is hard to spot."
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""legal obligation vs moral obligation"
Barbara says, "I would be looking around if I could find corroborating evidence if someone posted that they raped someone, killed someone---wouldn't you?"
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""yes"
Sue says, "I was recently at the Harvard Law Schl conference on internet and society and they were discussion where to draw the line in a situation where, say, you were running a mailing lisr about food..."
Wfp says, "I think stalking may be the best example, for many vague reasons."
Barbara says, "if someone writes, "This is fiction. I am now going to write a fictional account of a violent act because I want to." I probably would not do anything"
Sue says, "and someone sent you a post saying that they had poisened XX product "
Barbara says, "because people do write about violence"
GBrett [guest] finds its way in.
Sue says, "would you post it to the list?"
Barbara says, "well, the way I deal with it is I would say right off the bat, don't send me posts like that because I am not perfect and I don't know if I could handle it"
Sam says, "Although u might direct them to a creative writing list :;-)"
Sue smiles.
Barbara says, "no I would not send it to the list"
Sue says, "but barbara, someone could die because you didnt tell them!"
Barbara says, "but if someone sent me a post admitting a violent crime, I wouldn't leave it alone"
Barbara says, "true"
Barbara says, "I never thought of that"
Barbara says, "to tell you the truth I don't know what I would do"
Barbara says, "I can't speculate until something happens"
Jzitt [to barbara]: the issue of whether you personally can handle it or whether the list can handle it is interesting. If, say , Wfp were to say don't send these things to Socks because he couldn't handle it (which I doubt would happen) would it have a similar validity and effect?
Sue says, "you might send it to a friend - and THEY might post it to a list - who is responsible then?"
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""I think in that case you could shift the responsibilty by passing it on to someone with the authority to check it out."
Barbara says, "that is one of the dangers of the net. Infinite random possibilities. "
Barbara says, "true Joseph"
Barbara says, "true, Sue"
Barbara says, "it would be difficult to keep it to myself"
Sue says, "So we're all agreed we don't know what to do!"
Sue smiles.
Barbara says, "yes! :-)"
Sam says, "Barbara, I would like to ask a question about WebSocks"
Barbara says, "sure :-)"
You ask, "To what extent do you think the relationships should be formalized ... for example are there formal arrangements on WebSocks? in terms of decision taking, a committee perhaps?"
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""ok :)"
Barbara says, "no committees, for that would create a hierarchy"
Jzitt says, "Interesting, though, that we do include spoilers on messages to prevent given people, who we know messages might upset (like a certain shelled one with a volatile digestive system), from reading them unprepared."
Barbara says, "we have a town hall approach. Someone has an idea. They post it"
Barbara says, "Joe and wfp are Socks :-)"
Barbara says, "so they can answer Socks questions maybe better than I can :-0"
Jzitt says, "Re: Sam's question, that touches on how Barbara handled the Spam issue recently."
Barbara -)
Wfp says, "Barbara had enough of hierarchies in the corporate world, if I recall correctly!"
Sam asks, "So in ambigous cases you ask people to express their views ... any voting?"
Barbara says, "yeah, one guy came up to me at the xerox machine and said, "Oh you're a busy little..."
Barbara says, "that was it with me and heirarchies."
Jzitt says, "Voting is difficult. Finding consensus is better."
Barbara says, "yes, we find consensus after discussion"
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""vocal majority rule"
Barbara says, "yes"
Wfp says, "We don't even know how many members we have -- how could we take a meaningful vote?"
Barbara says, "an idea will be put forth, then if people like it, we go ahead"
Sam says, "What % of members participate in discussions? "
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""impossible wfp"
Barbara says, "unfortunately I don't run the list technically. I don't ask for membership numbers often. But last count we were breaking 400"
Wfp says, "I can give you a figure then"
Barbara says, "we are in 15 countries and we are two years old"
Jzitt says, "Actually this is a somewhat solved problem on usenet, in terms of voting for group creation/destruction."
Barbara says, "shall I go on to the next unit?"
Wfp says, "It works out, then, to about 10% "
Barbara says, "yeah, most probably"
Sam says, "Sure"
Wfp says, "My "shadow" list has 38 people"
Barbara says, "this is the last unit I prepared The balance between debate and going too far--when to let go of an argument and why"
Barbara says, "Last summer, I was away from email while on vacation for 3 weeks."
Sam . o O ( lucky you ;- )
Barbara says, "An older woman came on the list who had experienced a great trauma. Her 1-yr-old niece had been murdered. Taking this experience in hand, she used it to justify a political opinion in favor of tough measures against sexual offenders. "
Barbara says, "Three men on the list started taking her ideas apart and speaking in favor of those falsely accused. One had a sister who got into fights at school but hid the truth by telling everyone that he beat her. He had very strong opinions on what it felt like to be falsely accused, but he was also a fiercely logical debater and basically tore this woman to shreds."
Barbara says, "She never recovered. She couldnt handle it. She was no match for him. I exchanged a lot of private email with her, and at one point I thought it was over. But I was wrong. She had spent three months emailing various people on the list, in private, making one of them weep in front of the computer. She got a lot of people to quit the list, and I never had a shot at doing anything about it because I didnt know it was going on. (Maybe one day I should technically run the list myself. Right now, I dont.)"
Barbara says, "When I found out, we had a discussion about judgment. Is it really limiting freedom of speech if, when someone is expressing an opinion, you ask yourself if they can handle having that opinion held up to the light of objective debate? Some people cant handle it. They are speaking from raw, unhealed wounds. We decided that when you can feel that, it is time to let go of the argument."
Barbara says, "so my question for everyone is when would you let go of an argument, and why?"
Barbara says, "I will open up the discussion"
Jzitt says, "Problems arise, however, when people on both sides of an argument are speaking form "raw, unhealed wounds"."
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""Are you still in touch with her?"
Barbara says, "no, she left"
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""her story haunts me...I think she was searching for something the list wasn't prepared to give"
Wfp says, "Here's a point: I know of at least one person who is reluctant to post (but participates in the chats) because of (a) the vehemence of the recent discussions on politics and (b) the tenacity of a certain other member when it comes to hanging on to a s"
Barbara says, "she wrote me 10K messages about all the pain she was going through. I spent 2 hours replying to one message once"
Barbara says, "there was a point where I couldn't give her any more of myself"
Wfp says, "that should be "hanging on to a topic""
Barbara says, "has anyone ever come across someone like that?"
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""Of course Barbara"
Barbara says, "wanna share some wisdom?"
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""I have none."
Barbara says, ":-)"
Wfp says, "... And I myself feel bad about a verbal drubbing I gave someone many months ago -- I castigated him for naivete."
Jzitt [to wfp]: if it's my political tenacity (as I've been in extended debate on Socks of late), I apologize. I wouldn't want to scare anyone off Socks by it.
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""A person who's pain is so overwhelming it becomes the defining part...you can never give enough to them..."
Wfp says, "He seemed to post less after that"
Barbara says, "I just think you have to learn your way"
Sam says, "Drawing a line might actually benefit them"
Barbara says, "that is true, Beetle"
Barbara says, "oops, I was saying that you have to learn your way around online communities by experience. I don't think there is any other way. What does everybody think?"
Wfp says, "Joe: well, you and others, to be sure -- it was the tone of the debate (which I also found offputting), not the content"
Sam says, "there is no substitute for experience ... although sooner or later the theorists will move in ;-)"
Jzitt says, "Yeah, that debate got outside the norm for Socks. If someone had told us to cut it out, and that it was upsetting people, I sure we would have, but it's hard to tell if people aren't saying anything."
Barbara says, "anyway, so these are some of the things I have learned" you are now being privvy to an inside-Socks discussion in an outside-Socks forum :-)"
Sam exclaims, "Excellent presentation Barbara!"
Wfp says, "and this member's mentioning that brought up to my mind my porevious verbal excesses"
Noel_guest says, "Thanks Barbara"
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""but you can't predict what might upset someone..."
Barbara says, "I hope everyone liked it"
Barbara says, "no you can never predict what will upset someone"
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""which is where trust comes in again"
Behn's_Guest has logged out.
Barbara says, "anyone have final thoughts?"
The beetle guest [guest] says, ""Thank you Barbara."
Noel_guest asks, "Sam: I came in late are you going to post a transcript again?"
Sam says, "I would like to thank everybody for coming ... more meetings in the next few weeks"
Sue smiles.
Sam says, "Yep I am recording the meeting turn it to HTML and make it available"
BruceR to Wu, (I'm in a RL, meeting now, so just lurking, and I don't have the rpage feature added :/. I'll be free in about 2 hours. Page me with a time and place to meet.)